Kathy and Gigi: Showing Up for Ourselves

Rachael: Welcome to Season 8 of Formative, the show where today's leaders are interviewed by the leaders of tomorrow.

Our guest today is Kathy Coughlin. Kathy is the Chief People Officer at Doherty Enterprises, a company focused on growing popular franchise restaurants like Panera Bread and Applebee's. Kathy talks to us about her passion for people and how she establishes systems that help employees challenge themselves and grow. We're excited to learn more about Kathy and her career.

Rachael: Hello and welcome. I'm Rachael Gazdik, CEO of New York Edge, and my co-host today is Gigi from M.S. 375X. Gigi, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself? 

Gigi: Hi, my name is Gigi. I'm from Bronx Math Preparatory. I like playing football and I like cooking and drawing. 

Rachael: Wow, that's great. And who are we speaking with today?

Gigi: We are going to be speaking to Kathy Coughlin, and I'm very excited to be speaking with her today. 

Rachael: Well, let's welcome Kathy then. Kathy, it's so nice to have you on the show today. 

Kathy: Thank you for having me. I'm very excited about this. 

Rachael: Oh, we're really excited to have you here today too. Gigi, what's your first question for Kathy?

Gigi: Can you explain to me what a Chief People's Officer means? 

Kathy: Basically, we handle all of the human resources types of things for people. So when you want to get your benefits, right, when your medical, your healthcare, um, if we give you discounts to concerts, it's anything that is an incentive or compensation for your employees. It's like your life within the company. We provide all of those services. So your payroll, your benefits, um, culture we say is important. And we try to have events that make people feel connected, engaged, you know, and, and that they really want to take care of the guests like we want to take care of them.

My job is to take really good care of the people who work for us so that they take really good care of the guests who come into our restaurants. So it's a lot. 

Gigi: What are some of the qualities you look for when you're hiring people? 

Kathy: It really depends on the position, right? Like if you're in one of the restaurants, you definitely have to like people.

Like, you know, you walk by people with a smile on your face all the time because it's just, there's a hospitality gene that you have that you just, it's like people coming into your own home and you want to make sure they have the best experience. 

I also look for people who think, people who are willing to learn, not stuck in their ways. I think the, the world is ever changing, people are ever changing, and it's important to keep your mind open and listen and then react to what you're seeing or hearing with a common goal, but understanding where everybody's coming from, because I think we, we work better as a team when you do understand everybody's role on the team and everybody's positives that they contribute as well as what they might not be so good at so that you can support them with the right team member. So there's a lot of dynamics, but it definitely depends on the position, right? What I'm going to hire a CFO for is not going to be the same that I would hire an hourly server or a manager for. 

Gigi: Right. Um, did you ever have to fire someone and was it scary?

Kathy: Yeah, I think firing is never easy. And I like, I think there's two kinds of firing. People fire themselves, right? You either show up for work or you don't show up for work. And as long as you're making that clear to them, which I like to do, right? I want to put the head, on my head on the pillow at night and know that I was really good to people. And so if you're late three times a week, four times a week, I'm going to tell you every time and then I'm going to say, listen, if this keeps happening, unfortunately, I can't rely on you and you're not going to have a job so that when I'm having that decision to finally let them go, then I say to them, remember this, remember this, remember, I gave you the opportunity, you're just choosing not to show up. That's the best way to do it. 

The ones that are the harder, like if you made a bad hire and you put the person in the wrong position, and they just really don't either have the will, meaning like they don't want to do it, they're just, or they really don't have the competency or the skill to Like, how to do that job. You thought you did. They talked a great game. Let's just say it's somebody who's in finance, and they really talked about numbers, and they liked certain classes in math, but then they get here, and it's audits and debits, and it's looking at tax records, and it's just not gelling for them. 

Those are the harder ones, because It's not the person's intent to not do well. They're just not getting it. And in the business, you need them to get it. So I again try to have the same approach where, you know, I go at them lovingly and just listen, this is not working out. Here's why you don't look engaged. You don't look like you like it. You And these are the mistakes that you're making, and we can't have them in this area, and it's, this is a critical skill for this job. Sometimes we can put them in a different position. Like, I just had someone on my team, she obviously wasn't let go. She's so good at what she does, but we had a gap somewhere else, and I'd hated to lose her from my department, but she was so good at those skills that I'll say to the other department head, you know what? We really have a gap here. She's so good at this. You should really take her and give her that opportunity. 

And the same thing can happen when people don't have the skills. You do know what they are, and if you are lucky enough to work in an organization like ours, hopefully we can steer them to something that helps them. But if not, you help them land on your feet, right? So if not, then I make sure that I give them headhunters or I tell them here are some resources that you could reach out to. You try to kind of let them go in a way that keeps them whole because you're not trying to hurt the person. You just need the job done and that person can't fill it.

But they're never easy because you're human beings and you don't want to hurt somebody. But I think you can approach it in a nice way and in a human way that shows compassion. 

Gigi: If you can give someone inspiring words, what would it be? 

Kathy: I think if you want to inspire people, number one, you have to be your authentic self, right? So you, you, I think, especially when you're young and everybody likes to be similar because everybody wants to figure out who their group of friends are and how to band together. And that's good because it attracts you to people that you'll learn from, but you have to also know at your core that you are your own unique, special human being and no two people are the exact same, even twins, and you have to kind of figure out what it is that you're supposed to become and do and be the best version of that.

So I think that's one thing is to really just listen to yourself and be authentic. And then I think secondly is then create the environment that you want to live in and work in, right? So if you like being around positive people, then make a conscious effort to be positive all day. If you want to achieve a goal, then you've got to do the work that says, okay what do I need to do in order to achieve that goal? So create your own environment that you want to work and live in and the kind of people that you want to be around. It is in your control if you look at it that way every day. 

Gigi: Okay, it says here that you were passionate about creating an environment where people develop a way of life and all associates are given an opportunity to be challenged and grow.

Have you achieved what you're passionate about? 

Kathy: I think so. I think, you know, we tried a program last year where there's a lot of kids who don't want to go to college and colleges become very expensive. And so one way that I do that is we put down this like milestone program and somebody who really likes serving people, being in the food industry, they can come and get a job and we'll train them right away and they can make a decent living.

I mean, we're talking over $50,000 a year as a manager starting and they can look at this as a career. And it's a fun career, you get addicted to it. When you start telling them about it, as they're passing through, just waiting tables, they're like, I actually really do like this, and this makes me happy. And I'm like, well, then you can make a career out of it. And then the training and development part of my job, then we can train them on the skills they need to do that. And then they get to do it. 

We also have something called “Wow A Friend”, which is also very filling, which is we take donations from people in their paycheck. It could be 5 cents, 10 cents, a dollar, you know, like I'll put in more than that on my paycheck. And that money is for our own employees when they come on hardship. And that one really, really makes me feel like we've done something good because when Hurricane Sandy hit, you know, and you have hourly people who have children, they had no homes, they had no groceries. And we were able to put them in hotels and get them Target gift cards and feed them in the restaurant. Yeah, putting a program in place like that at our organization so that you're helping people. Those are the things that fill my gas tank. I get to do it every day. 

Gigi: That's a great inspiration.

Rachael: Kathy, your company manages all these famous chains we all know about, like Applebee's and Panera. Did you get your start working at any of these chains? 

Kathy: I actually didn't. I did work at chains, but not the ones that we manage. 

So my first job was in a Dunkin Donuts back in the day when there was like the counter service and they would pay with like dimes. And it was really funny, like we had, I had regulars. That's what we call the people who come in every day and sit and chat with you. And I was like 14 years old and they didn't want to hire me because in New Jersey I think you had to be 16 at the time. 

But again, I really wanted a job. I wanted my mad money. And so my parents said as long as I kept my grades up that they would let me take the job. And I had to wear a donut tree dress. How embarrassing is that? And it barely fit me at the time. I was like this little thing and I had to tie around the apron, but I just loved going to work every day and, you know, coffee and a donut. And it was fun. 

And I think it's just that meeting people and the experience. And a donut makes a little kid very happy when you fill up that munchkin box and you can hand one over the counter. There's something about that,  fills up my gas tank. 

Gigi: That's great. What did you learn from it? 

Kathy: What I learned was how to take care of people, right? Like how to diffuse situations. I think some people just come in in a bad mood in the restaurant industry. And I learned that you have to be self motivated. Like, I actually had this little tape inside my head when, especially more so when I was waiting on tables at Houlihan’s. Like, if somebody came in in a really bad mood, you're working off of tips. You know, they'll make it up for you if you don't make enough, but it, it, You're working off of tips, so you really, that's your instant reward that if you work hard and you do the right thing, you get rewarded. 

And I would play a little game in my head if I knew somebody was miserable and they were running me around and their kids were throwing stuff. I was like, it is not gonna distract me from making sure they leave here from the best experience and like that, getting my personal motivation to get like a good tip and have them leave happy. 

And I had one experience. I don't know if they were getting divorced or something, but the guy and the wife were like arguing the whole time. The kids were all over the place. And I was like, I was determined that I was going to get a good tip. And it was just, it was not a great experience. And then when the credit card went down, the wife went to pay and I knew she was not happy. And I was like, oh God, I'm not going to get a good tip. But I still did what I'm supposed to do. And I actually got called up to the front after they left. I'm cleaning up all the sugar wrappers under the table. And it was the husband and he handed me a hundred dollar bill. And he said, I have never been anywhere where someone took so much time to make sure that myself, my children. We were having a bad day. And I was like, see, you know, if you just are who you are, it works. It doesn't always work in your time, but it works. And it just, that always stuck with me that like, just do what in your heart you think is the right thing for you to be doing in whatever job you're at. And It'll pay off, I think. 

Gigi: That's great.

Rachael: What inspired you to take the restaurant industry seriously and grow and build a lifelong career in it? 

Kathy: I think, you know, my story's a little weird. Um, I had a great grandmother who told me, like, at one point when I wasn't sure what I wanted to do once I grew up, she said, life is like a tumbleweed. Just go where it flows you and what peaks your interest at the time. And that's what I've always done. I went to college not for restaurant business. I fell in it because I, I'm one of seven children in my family and I've always worked. And I worked in jobs in restaurants because it was easy and when you were young, it was an easy job to get. And after graduating college, I had lost two friends on Pan Am 103. And that was in my junior year of college, and it was, it made you think, what do you really want to do for the rest of your life? 

Gigi: Yeah.

Kathy: And I found myself working in the restaurant industry after that just to save money and figure out I was going to go to law school. And I was like, I don't know if I want to go back to school for another four years. I just graduated. And I think what really got me was how do I do what I like to do, which is I love meeting people and being in the restaurant business. And then I had a great GM who just said, Kathy, you should try and do this for your career. 

He waited a couple of days till after I was working and he was like, what are you doing here? You just graduated Boston College. You have a double major. Why are you back at restaurants? Like, why aren't you going to do something? And I told him my story about my friends and that I was thinking about law school I had gotten in, but I could defer a year and, you know, he just really got to know me and said, well then, why don't you try some of these things? And I just kind of was the tumbleweed my grandmother told me to. And I wound up really liking it and falling into a good place in life. 

Gigi: What's a career mistake you made and how did you fix it? 

Kathy: Oh, my God. You always make mistakes. This is a good question, because I think a lot of people just sit in their silo and they don't understand how they're connected to other parts of business or other human beings and how the differences of everybody in there is important. You know, I'm probably of the age that, you know, I definitely was around when it was a male dominated, and still can be, business. 

I think I also then work on it on the flip side. You know, when you're at those executive meetings and you're still one of the only women in the room, you bring that empathy and that perspective. You have to really develop your voice. You want to play, so you want to be at the table. So you can't be so argumentative or like you don't understand my perspective, you kind of have to show them your perspective through experience and in a way that's mature, and that takes time to develop over time to develop over time. I think I'm much better at it, but I definitely think I did some growing there as a younger executive. Like I was definitely, it's not right. This is not fair. You know, you come out of college and you're…but then, you don't necessarily make the impact. Whereas if you sit there and you put them in your shoes in a very different way, and you make them feel your experience from your perspective, but in a human way, they start listening and they open up and they're like, I never thought about it like that.

And when you're young, I feel like, or at least I did, you just want to march through the wall. And I would just say take the horse blinders off a little bit and make sure that you're seeking to understand from everybody around you and you're trying to be that constant learner because you'll make less mistakes. You're still going to make them. But as long as you're trusting your gut, even if it's not the right answer in the moment, there's a reason you made it and you're going to learn from it, but don't not make it either. Like sometimes people sit in that and they don't take action. Don't sit in it. Get all the facts first, don't just march, but get all the facts and then make the best decision you possibly can and if it's a mistake, just know you're going to learn from it and learn from it.

Gigi: What were you like in middle school? 

Kathy: Uh, middle school. I feel like that's a weird time, right? Like, you're, you're, and Gigi, you can correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm old and I'm trying to remember here, but I feel like you're getting independence. You, you know, your friend group is more important than it was when you were in the littler school and your parents approval, you know, was more important when you were little. But now it's, do my friends like what I'm doing? Do I like hanging with my friend? There was more of that. And then going out by myself with my girlfriends versus having to be with my parents all the time. Um, so I feel like it was your first step in exploring that finding who out, who your authentic self is a little bit.

Gigi: Yeah, it was. 

Kathy: Yeah, that's how I feel. And you're just dabbing your toe in it and you're learning and you're making those mistakes. 

Gigi: That's exactly how it was, yeah. 

Kathy: But it helps you. It does. So don't be afraid of them because it definitely helps you. You know, they shape you. You learn from every single one of them.

Gigi: Thank you. Um, what was college and high school like for you? 

Kathy: High school was fun. I went to a small all girls private school, which I didn't like at first when my parents were like, they were moving from my town to another town. And they didn't want me to have to switch high school. So as a parent, now I understand their reasons. But at the time, I was like, what are you doing to me? But it wound up being a lot of fun. And I made a lot of great friends. Um, and then college, you know, it's like that thing that I felt like I had to do and when I got there, I realized why people say you learn so much about yourself living away from home, you know, they make at least the college, I went to Boston College and that college, you know, they made you take certain liberal arts classes to that gets you through thinking outside of your normal perspective, right? And then you're sharing from people from all over the country who also were raised differently, and they bring different perspectives. So that diversity of like thought, and how other people live and think, I just like learning those, I'm a constant learner. And so I love that experience and being able to learn about myself. But then also respecting all the people around me who were their selves and their unique selves and getting to kind of broaden my horizons. I think in high school, you're limited to your town or whatever travel you do for your sport or, but when you get to college, it really broadens that perspective and the people that you get to touch and meet and inspire you. 

Gigi: That's great. 

Rachael: All right, Kathy, the last question we ask everyone is if you could go back and speak to yourself at the age of 13, what would you say?

Kathy: You know, be patient with yourself. You think the world is what's happening this day or next week or next month? And as the years and the time goes by you realize that it's just a small glimpse. There's such a long journey in front of you and don't take it to heart, every mistake, and really be patient with yourself and say, okay, this is part of the experience. I'm supposed to make mistakes learn and grow and I need to just be okay with it. 

But also communicate better, I would, I think at that middle school age. And I think you kids are better than my generation was and probably even I was better than my mom's generation. But there's a lot out there that you can talk to us about when you're having those moments where you're confused and you don't know what's going on and it's scary or you don't know if it's the right thing or your friends are making choices that aren't right and you don't want to tell on them. There's like difficult things that go on in those ages. And I think really trust, trust your instincts on who the good adults are, but trust those good adults in your life who are asking you, how's it going and what's going on? And be honest because when you are and you get the good advice sooner than later, it really does matter and people who are older than you, they've been through it and they know. And they're not gonna, they're not gonna beat you up for what you're doing because they've had that experience, but they're gonna try to give you some good advice.

Rachael: That's great advice Kathy, thank you so much for talking to us today.

Gigi: Yes, it was very nice meeting you. 

Kathy: You too. 

Gigi: Thank you. 

Kathy: Awesome.

CREDITS

Thanks for listening to Formative, a production of New York Edge. I’m your host, Rachael Gazdick. Our production partner for this series is CitizenRacecar. This episode was produced by Hager Eldaas, post-production by Alex Brouwer, production management by Gabriela Montequin, original music by Garrett Tiedemann. Thanks to the whole team at New York Edge for making this series possible. Never miss an episode by subscribing to the series at newyorkedge.org/formative or wherever you get your podcasts.